About Rebranding

Jari · Post by **Jari** » Mon 27. Dec 2004, 11:40

@WazZza.

That was the most stupid things I have read for a long time now because you don't seem to understand the whole concept of GPL and Open Source

Change business and start working with something different if you can't find clients that will pay for your work if you use Open Source.

It says more about your skills and what you can do when you say your clients don't want to pay you if you use Open Source.

My clients pays me for my skills and they are aware of that I use only Open Source programs as an ground and tool for my work and I have no problems to find clients because they come to me and they can read all over my site that I use Open Source as an tool and they save a lot of money when they don't need to pay for the programs just for my work.

And don't talk about they don't want to pay if you use Open Source, I think the problem is they don't want to pay for your skills or lack of skills, and I'm sure you try to make to much money on bad skills and therefor they don't want to pay you.

My 2 cents.

ionrock · Post by **ionrock** » Wed 29. Dec 2004, 19:11

I don't think it is really fair to say a developer's are skills lacking just because a client does not understand what goes into a piece of software. Everyone knows how to make a engine but no one says that Ford or GM is ripping people off by selling technology that is freely available to anyone who can go to a library. You pay for skills, time and material when you buy most products, not technology. You can't short change a developer Just because there are no tangible materials in web developement. Getting a client to understand this can be a real challenge and while it is a just cause to fight the fight for free software by not taking the client, it is more important that you fight against your family going hungry than standing up for free software.

Jari · Post by **Jari** » Wed 29. Dec 2004, 19:45

I'm not sure what to respond on that, yes maybe a little unfear to say someones skill isn't enough. But have you seen his work ?

I haven't but if you read his post the main thing has been that he laughs and says "You cannot prevent people removing your copyright", you should understand what he is going to do and thats not fear for the comunity or Oliver.

His defense to do that is no one is going to hire him if they see he uses Open Source, I say thats bull.

If he is a good enough webdesigner I'm sure he will get alot clients even if they know he uses Open Source.

But if he isn't a good webdesigner then he needs somethingto to try make a lot of cash on and that's a rebranded Open Source and fooling hes clients to think he has developed the application and had so much work with it so he must take alot $$ for it.

Thats what I think. If I'm wrong then he can tell me that and give a link to his website.

WazZza · Post by **WazZza** » Fri 31. Dec 2004, 03:37

@Jari

Jari wrote:That was the most stupid things I have read for a long time now because you don't seem to understand the whole concept of GPL and Open Source.

I perfectly know and understand what GPL and Open Source are.

- YOU don't understand my purpose for posting here.
- YOU don't know what Open Source is : for your information Open Source doesn't necessary mean free.

Jari wrote:I'm not sure what to respond on that, yes maybe a little unfear to say someones skill isn't enough. But have you seen his work ?

And you, have you seen my work ? No ! So shut up.

Jari wrote:I haven't but if you read his post the main thing has been that he laughs and says "You cannot prevent people removing your copyright", you should understand what he is going to do and thats not fear for the comunity or Oliver.

You're just a stupid person, and I mean it.

Do you think I'm here to politely ask to Oliver "may I steal your work" ?

If I had to plan to steal it I would not be here to ask for rebranding (and to read such stupid things from you). I just would have to steal the whole stuff and shut my mouth.

Jari, my prospects/customers are EXACTLY LIKE YOU. They don't know what they're talking about and say "this one is a thief (or could be a thief)".

@ionrock

Nice to see some people are open minded. Many thanks.

WazZza · Post by **WazZza** » Fri 31. Dec 2004, 04:39

@ Oliver

2 different issues (if I use phpWCMS, but currently I don't) :

* Letting my customers know they're using a free application : this is a problem, but not a big one : I'll hire a sales person soon (I'm really bad at selling myself

).

* My competitors can see I use a such great application (looking at the source of the webpages), and I don't want they discover it

.
In the region I'm living in the market is very small. So competitors (not a lot, but they exist) are really a BIG problem.

Again, my intention is NOT to use my own copyright instead of yours, but simply remove it, to be able to sell my packages easier and to protect myself against competitors. And sure I'll pay you if you allow me to do so.

Regards.

Jari · Post by **Jari** » Fri 31. Dec 2004, 10:51

Then I'm sorry that I was wrong. Can you provide me with an link to your website ?

You are saying that you want to remove the copyright because you don't want your competitors to see what program you are using, why don't you then use one of the CMS that you pay for and can rebrand ?

You say one thing and then you say something against what you just said. I't really looks strange, why are you going for Open Source at all ?

You say you know the rules about GPL, then why are you at all looking for GPL because you know what you want to do is against the GPL rules ??

Where do you live ? It would be much better for me to understand how your customers think if I knew where you live because it must be some country outside of Europe if your costumers really don't want to buy your work if you use Open Source ?

duergner · Post by **duergner** » Fri 31. Dec 2004, 10:55

OK let me just say some words as I've read that thread some times now. In my personal opinion there is no real reason why removing the copyright might really help you.

For your first point you mentioned to Oliver I can say that I hope your sales man will be successful in convincing your customers.

And for your second point I have to say that your competitors may only have a benefit from knowing what CMS you are using when they can do better work than you using this CMS or your customers are not really good bound to yourself. And in both of these cases I do not see any real benefit that can be reached when doing rebranding.

Jari · Post by **Jari** » Fri 31. Dec 2004, 11:08

WazZza wrote:@Jari

I perfectly know and understand what GPL and Open Source are.

- YOU don't understand my purpose for posting here.
- YOU don't know what Open Source is : for your information Open Source doesn't necessary mean free.

It looks like you don't know the Open Source rules or GPL, if you know why are you asking then if you can remove the copyright because thats against the GPL rules ?

Jari wrote:I'm not sure what to respond on that, yes maybe a little unfear to say someones skill isn't enough. But have you seen his work ?
And you, have you seen my work ? No ! So shut up.

As I sid I haven't seen your work, give me an link to your website and then I can see your work ? Or are you afraid for some reason that I or someone else discover something that you don't want us to discover ?

Jari wrote:I haven't but if you read his post the main thing has been that he laughs and says "You cannot prevent people removing your copyright", you should understand what he is going to do and thats not fear for the comunity or Oliver.

Jari, my prospects/customers are EXACTLY LIKE YOU. They don't know what they're talking about and say "this one is a thief (or could be a thief)".

Thats really Bull !! I am one of the people that is all for Open Source and thats the way it should be, you have still not discoverd that.

My clients know I'm using Open Source and only Open Source, I have it written all over my website and I'm proud to say my clients are glad because they save money because of that so you are really talking about something you don't know.

In my sig you will find a link to my website so you can look for your selve, you can't be living in Europe if you say your clients don't want to hire you if you use Open Source ?

@ionrock

Nice to see some people are open minded. Many thanks.

[/quote]

I am open minded and use Open Source only and I use them by the GPL rules and I'm all for the GPL rules, and you are not because you want to remove the copyright.

Buy your software and rebrand if you want to do so and don't look for Open Source because Open Source is not for you and your intentions.

isac · Post by **isac** » Fri 31. Dec 2004, 19:42

WazZza wrote:@ Oliver

2 different issues (if I use phpWCMS, but currently I don't) :

* Letting my customers know they're using a free application : this is a problem, but not a big one : I'll hire a sales person soon (I'm really bad at selling myself ).

* My competitors can see I use a such great application (looking at the source of the webpages), and I don't want they discover it .
In the region I'm living in the market is very small. So competitors (not a lot, but they exist) are really a BIG problem.

Again, my intention is NOT to use my own copyright instead of yours, but simply remove it, to be able to sell my packages easier and to protect myself against competitors. And sure I'll pay you if you allow me to do so.

Regards.

I think is very clear and i can understand is point of view because all we have competition and a company has is own secrets. The men ask permission and it was refused, so he must find another cms in some other place. But maybe is competitors hiden copyright silently - who knows?.

If he knows his clients don´t trust in open source, them he must find another solution so his costumers don't go away and charge a little more. Maybe them, they think different or not.

This is cheap ($269) and you can make full rebrand, take a look. (i use it some times)

http://demo1.interactivetools.com/curre ... index.html

By the way happy new year.

WazZza · Post by **WazZza** » Wed 19. Jan 2005, 08:01

1. Thanks isac, but this is only an article manager. Note : Oliver didn't say no to my request.

2. Jari : you're really boring. No more reply from me.

3. I've found someone who can replicate the functionalities of phpWCMS for USD 250. My PHP skills are not so bad but this guy has more experience than me, so the process will be more quick and sure. I'll not use phpWCMS.

Cheers everyone.

duergner · Post by **duergner** » Wed 19. Jan 2005, 09:16

WazZza wrote:3. I've found someone who can replicate the functionalities of phpWCMS for USD 250. My PHP skills are not so bad but this guy has more experience than me, so the process will be more quick and sure. I'll not use phpWCMS.

So beside knowing the skills of your coder I would say that is guy is either totally stupid, when doing all the work Oliver put into phpWCMS for only 250 USD. Because for coding something I would charge 35 - 50 USD per hour and that would imply that I had to finish the work in at most 8 hours and that is not possible. Or your guy will cheat you concerning the possibilities of the new system. Just think about that.

WazZza · Post by **WazZza** » Wed 19. Jan 2005, 09:58

duergner wrote:So beside knowing the skills of your coder I would say that is guy is either totally stupid, when doing all the work Oliver put into phpWCMS for only 250 USD. Because for coding something I would charge 35 - 50 USD per hour and that would imply that I had to finish the work in at most 8 hours and that is not possible. Or your guy will cheat you concerning the possibilities of the new system. Just think about that.

Hi,

Thanks for your advice.

The programmer I'm working with is NOT stupid

1- He's very competent, cheap (10 USD per hour) and hard worker (12-15 hours a day, 7 days a week; not because he's my slave, because he loves his job).

Sure USD 250 is a real bargain, but :

2- I will pay him a license fee each time I use the CMS (120 USD), so he'll finally earn more money with this project.

3- I'm engaged with him in a long term partnership, so I'll give him more work.

The work is in progress and smells very good

Regards.

marco · Post by **marco** » Wed 19. Jan 2005, 15:38

WazZza wrote:@ Oliver

Again, my intention is NOT to use my own copyright instead of yours, but simply remove it, to be able to sell my packages easier and to protect myself against competitors. And sure I'll pay you if you allow me to do so.

Regards.

Actually, the copyright statement is one thing you are NOT allowed to remove from the software. You can remove the "powered by", logos, and phpwcms specific icons, but not the "copyright by ... " statement.

Jari · Post by **Jari** » Wed 19. Jan 2005, 19:57

He bragd about that he know what the GPL license give you for rights, but then he wants to remove the most importend rule in GPL and that is Copyright.

WazZza I hope you understand the rules if you rework an Open Source product that you MUST release the source code for FREE to who ever ask you for it??

ionrock · Post by **ionrock** » Fri 21. Jan 2005, 03:12

Not to make this argument go any longer than it has to but I really think whether a copyright is visible or not does define the essence of the GPL. The most important idea in the GPL is that it empowers people the freedom to use software and their computer as they wish. The GPL is meant to protect a persons ability to use and modify the source code to a program and then forces the person to keep whatever changes under the same license. It is rather unimportant in the grand scheme of the GPL whether a piece of software has a small copyright logo on it. Again, I think we all know and understand Olivers stance on this issue and whether you agree or not I believe it is in the spirit of open source to follow his directions regarding leaving the copyright. If it is such an issue then I suggest going to the Free Software Foundation regarding what the GPL truly requires.