About Rebranding

Post by **Oliver Georgi** » Sat 22. May 2004, 14:32

It's the FAQ regarding rebranding and copyright on http://typo3.org

Update 18.12.04
old link may not work anymore - check this about skinning

Thanks to Kasper Skårhøj.

regards
Oliver

WazZza · Post by **WazZza** » Sat 18. Dec 2004, 02:49

Hi,

Absolutely killer CMS ! Wahhh !

The Typo3 page you give has been removed or moved, and I can't find it !

So, what's your policy regarding rebranding ?

That's a VERY IMPORTANT issue for me because in the country I'm living in, virtually no small (or very small) rural companies (my customers) are willing to pay for a free solution, even if I spend 2 weeks or more providing custom design, creating & adding hacks, teaching how the system works, and so forth. More, they'll see this as an attempt of theft !

Believe me !

I'm willing to pay to be able to remove the phpWCMS name on the BACKEND, but do you agree, how to pay, and how much ?

Regards.

Post by **Oliver Georgi** » Sat 18. Dec 2004, 08:26

OK, I've updated above info.

Thanks,
Oliver

WazZza · Post by **WazZza** » Sat 18. Dec 2004, 20:17

Hi Oliver & thanks for the quick reply.

I do understand you do not want other people appropriate your work and application, etc., and celebrity too

Nevertheless, be sure you CANNOT prevent dishonest people removing your name, copyright, logo and so on. That is soooooo EASY TO REMOVE THESE DATA. That is also easy to modify the admin interface so nobody will know this is actually phpWCMS.

1- Dishonest people WILL remove these data and use your application as if they have made it.

2- If you agree for rebranding that could be good for you too : you can earn some money selling the right to rebrand your (great) product. That could not be bad for you

Honest people will buy a license each time they use phpWCMS for a client website.
Dishonest people will not, NEVER. Whatever you think, agreeing for rebranding or not.

3- You cannot prevent people removing your copyright.

4- You canNOT prevent people removing your copyright.

5- You CANNOT prevent people removing your copyright.

Hope you will change your mind, just because... you cannot prevent people removing your copyright

You cannot loose anything.

Regards.

WazZza · Post by **WazZza** » Sat 18. Dec 2004, 20:34

Just to add this :

I don't want to sell phpWCMS, only my skills : to be able to remove your copyright and use... nothing instead (not my own copyright) will allow me to sell my skills with phpWCMS as a part of a bigger product/service.

In the part of the world where I'm living in (not so far from Germany), in rural areas, that's not possible - or that's very very very hard to - use a free product in a paying package and make money with it, even if the free part is 10% of the package.

Most people I'm talking about will surely think I'm a thief, I'd like to swindle them, so in a few weeks that will not be possible anymore to be in the webdesign business, because of the bad word-of-mouth.

Regards.

cristesmael · Post by **cristesmael** » Sat 18. Dec 2004, 20:42

But if Oliver allows you to pay to remove his copyright, then fewer people know about phpWCMS, there's less participation in the forum, less innovation, less attention to the real thing, ... understand? In the long run it hurts phpWCMS. The GPL system works. It's best to stick with it. Simply copyright your add-ons, and if your clients truly think they could do it on their own without you (which, in my experience, almost never happens), then let them do it alone. I don't think rebranding an open source tool (i.e. hiding where you got it from) is going to fool a cost-conscience client who can do a web search and find the free open source version which does the same thing.

If your clients have a problem understanding the concept of paying you to develop code on top of a free open source tool, then you've got to explain to them how the software world works. They are paying for your skills, not the open source tool. If they've got the same skills and time to innovate on top of phpWCMS, then they wouldn't be talking to you or anyone in the first place.

Just my two schillings...

WazZza · Post by **WazZza** » Sat 18. Dec 2004, 21:08

Your 2 CENTS

German currency (and Austrian too) is Euro

It looks like you don't understand my main concern and problem (no offense), like I can't understand american way of life and thinking (all those religious concerns etc), because you're not living in my place (again : no offense to you).

That's not because people have all a head, 2 hands, 2 legs, a liver, an heart, etc. that they think and act the same way. German are different than swiss, swiss are very different than french, american are very different than german.

I agree with your statement, but this does not solve "my problem". My main concern is to be able to sell my skills with a great CMS (which, moreover, is already allowed to use in a commercial project) in a package in a way I'm not taken for a thief (from my customers point of view).

Moreover allowing people to remove Oliver's copyright will not bring phpWCMS to death : 1) many people will continue to use the application as is, without removing the copyright, 2) Oliver will earn some money and will be able to further develop it (Oliver, don't reckon too much on donations...).

A company like Interspire is selling great open source applications (at an affordable price), and allows rebranding on all their products. That's a great business for them and their customers are very happy. There's also a great, friendly and efficient community of users that are always willing to help each others...

Finally, I will not use phpWCMS as is... maybe the code only...

Arg, stupid me ! I'm really a bad boy

WazZza · Post by **WazZza** » Sat 18. Dec 2004, 21:38

[quote="cristesmael"]But if Oliver allows you to pay to remove his copyright, then fewer people know about phpWCMS[quote]

The vast majority of phpWCMS users know it because it's referenced in scripts directories, word-of-mouth, and because the copyright is mentioned on the front-end (it's allowed, in some circumstances, to removed it) of some websites. So removing the copyright in the back-end doesn't change anything to this.

Regards.

cristesmael · Post by **cristesmael** » Sat 18. Dec 2004, 22:53

Hey, I still have left over schillings!

Personally, I don't think cultural notions of what constitutes thievery should play a factor. I know some in the former Soviet block who think selling a car for more than you bought it for is thievery. Many think selling any software is immoral. But that's not the basis of international law.

I didn't see that Interspire was using open source tools. Their site states, "Product support is provided by the actual developers of our products.", which leads me to believe they've developed all of their stuff, making them proprietary. I could be wrong and missed something.

If your client knows they are buying your skills and not the software, then how can they view the software as stolen? Are they expecting you to purchase commercial software and give it to them for free? This doesn't sound right. They should know up front that the software is freely available, and if it is free then I don't see where the stealing issue comes in. Are you wanting them to think you wrote the code and are giving it away for free?

I just don't see the logic in paying for a license to rebrand a free GPL product like phpWCMS. Again, why would a client pay you money in this situation when they could simply pay Oliver for the same rebranding license? This is no longer a GPL scheme. A BSD license will allow what you are wanting, but not GPL.

WazZza · Post by **WazZza** » Sun 19. Dec 2004, 01:49

cristesmael wrote:I didn't see that Interspire was using open source tools. Their site states, "Product support is provided by the actual developers of our products.", which leads me to believe they've developed all of their stuff, making them proprietary. I could be wrong and missed something.

Open source = buyers/users have access to the full source code, this doesn't mean anything else. So Interspire products are (paying) open source softs.

cristesmael wrote:If your client knows they are buying your skills and not the software, then how can they view the software as stolen?

Not that the software is stolen. They would think I'm trying to sell something that is free, and expect the full package (custom design, addons, consultancy) to be free or available at a fraction of the price (which is already very low). Incredible but true !

Believe me, I'm speaking by experience. I already tried to sell a package which included a HIGHLY MODIFIED PostNuke (+ hosting, submission to search engines, domain name, custom design, consultancy, etc.). And 9 / 11 pre-customers, after a first agreement, discovered PostNuke is freely available and expected the whole stuff to be free or at a 50% discount. And when I tried to explain, 8 out of these 9 finally refused to sign the contract and pay, 1 agreed, and 1 didn't sign and accused me to be dihonest. And this also happened with osCommerce and other softs.

But this never happened with Interspire products which are rebrandable...

Don't say that's not possible because you have never experienced the same situation (I mean 1- in my country, 2- in the region I'm living in). I'm experiencing it every day...

This is why I said you don't understand because of our cultural differences.

In Western Europe, nobody would vote for someone who's refering to God at each and every public speak

In the USA it's a common thing, but in Western Europe that's impossible. As a western european, I don't understand how US people could vote for a person like this, but I admit it.

Please do the same thing in the particular case I'm talking about here. Just admit it's possible.

cristesmael wrote:Are they expecting you to purchase commercial software and give it to them for free ? This doesn't sound right. They should know up front that the software is freely available, and if it is free then I don't see where the stealing issue comes in.

How could they know the software is available free of charge on the internet if they don't see any brand/copyright on the back-end ? No brand, no name, no logo, no link => Impossible to identify the product.

cristesmael wrote:Are you wanting them to think you wrote the code and are giving it away for free?

No, I just want to be allowed to remove the copyright, and use nothing instead. If the copyright is left my future customers will discover the soft is free and they will not agree to pay for the whole stuff.

Most of the time that's enough to say (talking about the CMS) "I have a great product for you" (no brand, no name given) instead of "I have made a great product for you". The customers will never ask "did you made it ?" because they don't care. This is exactly the case with Interspire products I'm using in my packages. None of my customers ask questions about their origin.

cristesmael · Post by **cristesmael** » Sun 19. Dec 2004, 08:09

WazZza wrote:In Western Europe, nobody would vote for someone who's refering to God at each and every public speak In the USA it's a common thing, but in Western Europe that's impossible. As a western european, I don't understand how US people could vote for a person like this, but I admit it.

LOL. You realize the largest party in the European Parliament is the Christian Democrats, right? I mean, in Bavaria they have crucifixes hanging in the public school rooms. Our public schools would be sued millions for such...

Anyway, back to the subject. I wish you luck in convincing your customers. I've not experienced those issues, yet. Let us know if you find a GPL CMS that allows you to purchase a license to rebrand it and remove all reference to the originator's copyright. That could come in handy.

All the best. And Merry Christmas

duergner · Post by **duergner** » Sun 19. Dec 2004, 10:03

I in my opinion can also see no real reason why to do so. When a customer isn't willing to pay for my work then I would either kick this customer or try to change his mind.

I don't see what would I make better to remove the copyright beside you would be able not to tell the customer what you really want to get payed for.

Post by **Oliver Georgi** » Sun 19. Dec 2004, 10:05

WazZza wrote:...you CANNOT prevent...

...but they have to know that it is illegal. And I have some hidden features included - maybe I find offences and will give it to my lawyer. If somebody needs a special licence - contact me. We will find a solution (I think).

regards
Oliver

Post by **Oliver Georgi** » Tue 21. Dec 2004, 09:26

There is no "calling home" or backdoor function included!!!

Oliver

Paradroid · Post by **Paradroid** » Tue 21. Dec 2004, 11:31

@ WazZza :

I don't know your way of working but I never had the problem to convince a customer to use a "free" software. If your customers trust you, they will accept the product of your choice. Our customers know that they are using a free product and that they only pay for installation, modification/design, maintenance, hosting and support. You should think over the way you work with your customers....

We do not need to rebrand free software and our costomers know what they are using. And last but not least it has something to do with RESPECT to Olivers great work which gives us and YOU the oppertunity to offer a great free product to our customers and sell our service.

Just my two cents ...

By the way, Merry Christmas to all of you.

About Rebranding

About Rebranding

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